Temperature vs. Humidity

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Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby SeriouslyExhausted » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:21 pm

Hi all, I am new here.
I have endless questions about CPAP, have had the machine for about 20 days and nearly everything that can go wrong has! But I am still very grateful to have it, because I used to be terrified to sleep since I woke up gasping for air a lot due to a regulatory system problem (in the brain - essentially the brain forgets to breathe sometimes).

I have a ResMed S9 Escape with humidifier (which I just today read on this forum was strongly advised against!), and apparently have a climate control tube because it has an orange end and the machine changes from humidity to temperature control when I lock the tube on. I guess that's how you tell?

Anyway, I have had a lot of problems with water. I fill the humidifier reservoir to a little below the Max line, and the machine spits out a ton of water which goes all the way up the tube into my face. I try to put less water in it, but I have woken up early in the morning with blazing hot air streaming into my mask with the reservoir completely dry and the machine hot to the touch. The machine is on the floor and I made a tube cozy and also apparently have this climate tubing, and yet I also have a lot of rainout as a separate issue from the water spitting. I seem to need a high amount of humidity. I put the machine on 5.0 and I wake up very dry. Going up to 5.5 is consistent rainout, and then my nose gets very congested. The room is at about 76, and I cannot make it a lot warmer or colder because of my illness. When I lock in the tube and the climate control turns on, it seems as though the humidity setting is irrelevant, it always feels the same no matter what I put it on (I am assuming "climate control" means you pick the temp. and the machine chooses the humidity to match it). So I am wondering if the temperature setting might make a difference, I am more flexible with this than room temp. or humidity. I see no charts anywhere that show humidity-to-temperature rainout limits, or really any suggestions about this, and yet temp. apparently is very closely tied to rainout.
So would it help to increase humidity if I locked the hose back on and raised or lowered the machine temp.? Or would it help if I adjusted the machine temp. up or down with the hose unlocked (so no climate control)? I can't figure out if I should go up or down with machine temp., I have tried both and have read comments that both ways helped rainout, which is confusing since warmer air carries more humidity, but the difference between the room air and tube air is what causes the condensation. (?) I have been trying to get sleep for 23 days in a row with no success!! I am beyond exhausted. I hope someone can help me here.
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Re: Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby weliz » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:19 pm

SeriouslyExhausted, welcome to the forum. I'm sorry you've had such a hard time. I can't speak to your specific question on the basis of temperature and humidity, but I wanted to post because it sounds like you are having serious issues with your machine. It is normal to take some time to adjust to the machine and humidity settings, and maybe get some "rainout" in your mask from condensation issues, but "spitting" water or having "blazing hot air streaming into my mask with the reservoir completely dry and the machine hot to the touch" can't be normal. Have you called the DME or whomever set you up with your machine? if not, call them tomorrow and tell them exactly what you told us, and insist that they replace the machine.

ALSO:

While you're at it, at a minimum, also call your doctor tomorrow to tell them to send the DME a new script for a machine that lets you view your AHI, leak rate, and other data! See robysue's post on this thread newbie-t29231.html?hilit=escape#p191961 for a good description. Should you wish to take an active role in your therapy it will be helpful to be able to view your data yourself. And it will help if you start noticing a trend in how you're feeling, you can look at the data and see if you see a trend in the data too. If you don't care to view your data, you have lost nothing.

Even better, ask your doctor to give them a new script for an Auto machine that automatically adjusts to the pressure you need. (ALSO with the ability for you to view AHI, leak, etc.) It can be run as a straight CPAP, but if your needs change it will adjust automatically. If all you need is straight CPAP pressure, then again you have lost nothing. This is why the forum advises against the Escape; it only records hours of usage. Just think; if you had diabetes, would it be acceptable for the doctor to just find out how many injections you had done? Or for high blood pressure, to just ask how many times you had taken your BP at home? No, they would want more data in order to see how your therapy was going and make adjustments, and they would want you to be more active in your treatment. Same with OSA, however many docs and DMEs don't quite get it yet.

I just switched from CPAP to APAP and am glad I did! I hated the idea that every time I didn't feel right meant I would need another sleep study. And just over the first 3 days my pressures have been lower than even the lowest pressure the sleep center recommended after my last study. So if I hadn't switched I would have been still going along with too-high pressure for goodness knows how long. Seriously, ask your doctor to approve one; perhaps your "regulatory system problem" would be enough of a justification. I would tell him that I was worried that my other issues would mean that my needs could change unexpectedly, and having an Auto up front would compensate for any changes immediately. It also may be possible that you need a more sophisticated machine like a Bipap or ASV for your other respiratory issues, but from what I have read on the forums you have to try the other type first and move on if the CPAP/APAP is not working for you. (Another reason to get a machine that lets you see data!)

I know this seems like a lot, but remember, YOU are in charge of your therapy. You may need to take the doctor and DME by the hand and tell them what you expect. You are the patient; you are the client; you are paying them. So when I say "ask" your doctor, I mean ask, but be firm and don't take no for an answer. As you are less than a month in, that may make things easier, depending on your insurance. But don't delay!

Hang in there, and keep us posted.
DX 7/22/10, started treatment 8/25/10
REMstar S1 Pro C-Flex+ / Swift LT for Her mask, 9/14/10
RemStar S1 Pro DS 550 Auto 3/20/12
Usual pressure 4-8
AHI before CPAP, 26; now .7
weliz
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:44 pm
Location: Maryland
Machine: Remstar Pro System One DS 550 Auto
Mask: Swift LT for Her
Humidifier: Yes
Year Diagnosed: 2010

Re: Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby SeriouslyExhausted » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:30 pm

Thanks so much for your detailed reply! I am so glad I decided to check in here again!

You never have to be afraid of giving too much information with me, I just want my health to improve, I don't care what it takes.

I have an appt. to follow-up with the doctor who ordered the CPAP in two days. I am going to talk to him about adjusting the pressure (I think it is too low often but also I have trouble with swallowing a lot of air so am not sure what to do about this), and also print out your message to discuss the highlights with him. He is generally thorough, but not sure how he will respond. I will give an update. I also want to find if I have options for the DME, they were nice at first but have been very difficult to get masks with once it became difficult to get the right fit, and I needed to order my first replacement supplies and they could not put the order in or even make a note for it because I was one day early. Then there was the weekend, so I had to wait to call again (difficult because I am very ill and my memory is affected), and then when I called today a rep told me I needed to speak to the new patient Dept. but not a single person there was picking up the phone, I was on hold for 15 min., and was told I would have to call back because there is no way to leave a message and the team lead could also not be reached. I note this because it seemed unusual an unacceptable to me for the middle of a workday morning.

Just to let you know, as for the spitting machine, it appears that I need to keep the water at one full line below the Max line, and then this does not occur. I have not had a repeat of the dry reservoir with the blazing hot air, but I will still mention these issues as you suggested. I would like to forgo the issue though and just get a different machine altogether since the Escape has no info for me. I am definitely interested in having feedback - I just didn't know this was an option when I started CPAP!

I also found that the temperatures are pretty irrelevant. Right now the machine is set to a max of 6.0 humidity and it's on 60 degrees F! It does not feel to me like either... and I don't think it has the capacity to actually cool air anyway. But the rainout and spitting issues have stopped, partly I think I needed to have the hose locked in, which it wasn't because then I could not adjust the humidity. Now it seems that I don't have a lot of control over the humidity, but at least there is no water dripping on my face.

Again, thank you very much (since I didn't get replies I was beginning to wonder if I said something offensive!), and I will update when I have gotten some help from the doctor this week. I'm sure there are others who would like to know how one can get a new set-up after something else has already been used, so hopefully I will have some info that will help someone.

Still Seriously Exhausted, but hopeful...
SeriouslyExhausted
 
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Re: Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby weliz » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:26 pm

I'm glad you're following through. It is important to have a good doctor, and a DME who will at least get back to you. As with the machines and masks, you have a choice with doctors and DMEs too, fortunately. There are always some bumps at the beginning of the CPAP journey, but with so many people here you are likely to find someone who have gone thorough whatever it is you're going through at any particular time, and who has figured out a "fix" you can try.

What machine to do you have? If you update your profile and put your machine and mask type in your signature, that will greatly help people's ability to give you targeted advice. Also you mentioned checking back to the site, did you know you can set it up so you get an email when a post you have written or are following has some activity? It does take a while for people to see the posts sometimes, especially in the smaller forums, so I have found the email notification to be helpful.

Hang in there, and stay hopeful and active in your treatment! :-)
DX 7/22/10, started treatment 8/25/10
REMstar S1 Pro C-Flex+ / Swift LT for Her mask, 9/14/10
RemStar S1 Pro DS 550 Auto 3/20/12
Usual pressure 4-8
AHI before CPAP, 26; now .7
weliz
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:44 pm
Location: Maryland
Machine: Remstar Pro System One DS 550 Auto
Mask: Swift LT for Her
Humidifier: Yes
Year Diagnosed: 2010

Re: Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby NoseHose » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:15 am

For every 10 degree (F) rise in temperature, air can hold twice as much moisture. That's an amazing fact. So if you crank your heater up on your humidifier, you're dumping huge amounts of moisture into the air leaving the unit and headed towards your mask. On the way, the air cools, and unable to hold the moisture that it did when warm, dumps it's onto the cool surface of the hose and into your relatively cool mask; condensation. I have seen this question/problem many times here on the forum, and the only think I can off is 1) insulate the hose as much as possible. I've found that a flannel hose cover helps immensely. 2) It's a "humidifer" not a "vaporizer". You actually don't want your air to be as saturated as the Amazon jungle. Too much moisture will cause your sinus to swell and make breathing more difficult.

You mentioned a room temperature of 76. Really? I typically sleep 15-20 degrees cooler unless ambient air temperature dictates something warmer.
"My life was restarted on June 29th, 2007"
63 yr. male
pre-CPAP apnea-hypopnea index (AHI) of 64
Prescribed for a 6 but I like to fool with things, and prefer 7
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Machine: Resmed S8 w/ over 11,000 hours
Mask: Resmed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: Yes
Year Diagnosed: 2007

Re: Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby truckerdad57 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:10 am

[quoteI made a tube cozy ][/quote]

If you have a ResMed S-9 and are using the climateline hose (which it sounds like from the orange hose end). STOP using the hose cozy. Engage (turn on) the climateline hose by turning it where it attaches to the humidifier. The climateline system will give you max humidification without rain out automatically for whatever temperature you set it for. If you turn the temp up you can make it feel like you are sleeping in a nice warm swamp.

The climateline hose has a heating element (a fine wire) and a moisture sensor at the end of the hose. If you put a hose cozy on it that will mess up the temperature from the humidifier to mask and defeat the sensors the climateline hose has built into it.

Call the ResMed customer support phone number listed in the users maniual for the PAP. Go over with them what is going on about humidity and let them talk you through how the settings will effect humidification. I've been on an S-9 and its about the best out there for managing humidifcation.

Overfilling the water reservior will get you the PAP version of waterboarding when water spits up into the tube. It's annoying and yes you need to not fill the water reservior all the way.

You will need to experiment with how high you can turn up the humidification on the S-9 with a climateline hose to not run out of water before the night is over. The S-9 and climateline is so good at humidifiying in a dry room you will use up all your water and be dealing with the hot plastic smell etc of a dry water reserviors on top of a heating element trying to make more humidity. The climate line hose has a moisture sensor at the end of the hose. When the water reservior goes dry the sensor will tell the heating element to go to high trying to keep the moinsture at the mask what it was set for.

Good luck.. it takes some experimentation to work all this stuff out.
(just a truck driver with sleep apnea)
Co-coordinator Truckers for a Cause Chapter of A. W. A. K. E.
awake.truckersforacause.com
Do not substitute information from here for professional medical advise.
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Machine: CPAP tester, you name it I've got 1
Mask: tend to like nasal pillow
Humidifier: YES - must have
Year Diagnosed: 2002

Re: Temperature vs. Humidity

Postby bharris52 » Wed May 02, 2012 2:15 pm

A little experimentation is to be expected, but 23 day without sleep seems a bit extreme, so you're right to be posting here! Honestly, I would put some serious research into your CPAP and whether or not that particular model is right for you. There are a LOT of brands on the marketplace, and it might be helpful for you to talk to your doctor much more extensively about a different brand or make. My first humidifier was absolutely horrendous, but after harassing the company enough and tweaking it for me, I got it to work well. Good luck!
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