Hi.  I wanted to report what happened with someone who suffered from severe obstructive sleep apnea (40-50 episodes per hour, as diagnosed by a sleep disorders clinic).  First, let me say I'm a certified clinical hypnotherapist with no particular training or background in treating sleep disorders per se.  The protocols I learned and practice are designed to engage the subconscious and to let the emotions and body speak for themselves, if you will.  The client I worked with was using one of the nighttime appliances the sleep disorders center recommended, to no avail.  The next step, they told him, was surgery to reposition his jaw.

In the hypnotherapy session, once he was in a relaxed state of mind, I asked the client (I'll call him "Joe," not his real name) to go into his sleep problem and ask it where it come from, what it was all about.  Almost immediately, Joe became tearful to the point of sobbing and expressed great remorse and guilt for abandoning his father to a nursing home after he'd had a stroke.  Joe had been bitter and angry toward his father since his dad abandoned the family when Joe was 13.  After Dad left, Joe wound up essentially raising his sister, as his mother was emotionally ill.  Despite this, Joe felt terrible about leaving his father to waste away, and in the hypnotherapy session, he was able to forgive his father, and he made a promise to himself to visit his dad in the nursing home.  Joe seemed to feel an enormous sense of relief, and he said he felt as if a great burden had been lifted.  He "knew" he'd be able to sleep soundly that night.

I saw him three days later, and he said he'd had no trouble sleeping since the session, and that a friend he was staying with observed that Joe was no longer snoring!  Six weeks after that, I spoke to Joe again, and he said he was still sleeping well, waking up refreshed.

I should add that it's not at all unusual for physical symptoms to improve if not vanish altogether as the result of hypnotherapy.  And I'm aware that despite the groundswell of support for complementary medicine approaches to problems (not to mention a growing body of evidence--no pun intended), there seems still to be considerable resistance among a great many physicians.  As an example, before Joe ever entered the picture, I had mentioned to one of the principals of the same sleep disorders clinic where Joe had his sleep study that I would be happy to offer my services gratis to any of his patients who might want to try a somatic healing approach.  His responded by essentially rebuffing me without expressing the slightest interest in the kind of work I do, saying no, this is not insomnia we're talking about, this is a purely medical condition that can't or won't respond to something like hypnosis.  End of discussion.

I'm in the strange position of almost feeling apologetic for the success of Joe's session, as if the unwelcome empirical data would be threatening or upsetting to the clinicians who "already know" that hypnosis and other "alternative" approaches are ineffectual.  And then there's the respiratory therapist I know who tells me that she's seen that often the surgery to correct obstructive sleep apnea itself doesn't work.

I'm not saying that all sleep apnea will respond to hypnotherapy; I have no way of knowing that.  I am saying that there seems to be an emotional/psychological component to most physical issues, and one ignores that component at one's peril.  And I'm not the only one saying this by any means.

For instance, Andrew Weil, M.D., says "In general, I believe that no condition is out of bounds for trying hypnotherapy on."

Thanks for letting me share my client's experience.

Hi Wholenewlight and Welcome!

You have one example of someone whose emotional trauma you corrected and they are sleeping better.  I do not doubt that in a minute.  But the true test of success in OSA "cures" is a follow-up sleep study after the "cure".  Please have your client repeat the sleep study and post his normal results and I absolutely guarantee that you will have thousands of people at your door, including me!!  If your client's OSA is not really fixed, then his life is at risk.  OSA carries with it increased risk of heart attack and stroke among many other severe effects.  It is a very complex disorder with devastating consequences if not adequately treated.

Hypnotherapy has worked for me in the past and I would happily be your first test subject if you wanted to run clinicial trials and publish your results!  Or just treat me and pay for my follow-up sleep study!  I'd help you write a research grant!  We go to the same place but from different sides.  NIH now has a center for alternative med. but I know it is hard to get alternative med accepted.  However, the way to get it accepted as an option is to have hard core data available for peer review.  OSA, is just to dangerous a condition to recommend an alternative approach as a first line of therapy.

However, you are correct surgery has a low success rate and we highly recommend thoroughly researching outcomes and options before someone goes there.  It also sounds like your client did not have a good sleep lab to work with.

Vicki


_________________
That which does not kill you makes you stronger-Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich must of had apnea.

wholenewlight wrote:

Hi.  I wanted to report what happened with someone who suffered from severe obstructive sleep apnea (40-50 episodes per hour, as diagnosed by a sleep disorders clinic).  First, let me say I'm a certified clinical hypnotherapist with no particular training or background in treating sleep disorders per se.  The protocols I learned and practice are designed to engage the subconscious and to let the emotions and body speak for themselves, if you will.  The client I worked with was using one of the nighttime appliances the sleep disorders center recommended, to no avail.  The next step, they told him, was surgery to reposition his jaw.

In the hypnotherapy session, once he was in a relaxed state of mind, I asked the client (I'll call him "Joe," not his real name) to go into his sleep problem and ask it where it come from, what it was all about.  Almost immediately, Joe became tearful to the point of sobbing and expressed great remorse and guilt for abandoning his father to a nursing home after he'd had a stroke.  Joe had been bitter and angry toward his father since his dad abandoned the family when Joe was 13.  After Dad left, Joe wound up essentially raising his sister, as his mother was emotionally ill.  Despite this, Joe felt terrible about leaving his father to waste away, and in the hypnotherapy session, he was able to forgive his father, and he made a promise to himself to visit his dad in the nursing home.  Joe seemed to feel an enormous sense of relief, and he said he felt as if a great burden had been lifted.  He "knew" he'd be able to sleep soundly that night.

I saw him three days later, and he said he'd had no trouble sleeping since the session, and that a friend he was staying with observed that Joe was no longer snoring!  Six weeks after that, I spoke to Joe again, and he said he was still sleeping well, waking up refreshed.

I should add that it's not at all unusual for physical symptoms to improve if not vanish altogether as the result of hypnotherapy.  And I'm aware that despite the groundswell of support for complementary medicine approaches to problems (not to mention a growing body of evidence--no pun intended), there seems still to be considerable resistance among a great many physicians.  As an example, before Joe ever entered the picture, I had mentioned to one of the principals of the same sleep disorders clinic where Joe had his sleep study that I would be happy to offer my services gratis to any of his patients who might want to try a somatic healing approach.  His responded by essentially rebuffing me without expressing the slightest interest in the kind of work I do, saying no, this is not insomnia we're talking about, this is a purely medical condition that can't or won't respond to something like hypnosis.  End of discussion.

I'm in the strange position of almost feeling apologetic for the success of Joe's session, as if the unwelcome empirical data would be threatening or upsetting to the clinicians who "already know" that hypnosis and other "alternative" approaches are ineffectual.  And then there's the respiratory therapist I know who tells me that she's seen that often the surgery to correct obstructive sleep apnea itself doesn't work.

I'm not saying that all sleep apnea will respond to hypnotherapy; I have no way of knowing that.  I am saying that there seems to be an emotional/psychological component to most physical issues, and one ignores that component at one's peril.  And I'm not the only one saying this by any means.

For instance, Andrew Weil, M.D., says "In general, I believe that no condition is out of bounds for trying hypnotherapy on."

Thanks for letting me share my client's experience.

Hi,

I think it very innappropriate and unprofessional of you to post on this group giving false hope to people.
I believe you are attempting to tout business, and should desist immediately.

Daniel


_________________
The untreated Sleep Apnoea sufferer died quietly in his sleep.......
Unlike his three passengers who died screaming !!!!!!

(Anon)

There is no right speculation here..... it is all about how big your imagination is to grasp unlikely possibilities.  I don't want to pressupose anything on the infinitely complex human body, do you Daniel?

If I have conscious control over my tongue and soft palate during my waking life, who's to say I couldn't gain conscious control of them while asleep?  Hey, everyone else has control over them while they sleep!!!  Maybe its a control we all must gain back somehow?  I'm sure the mechanism by which I gained this control would be infinitely complex and mysterious..... suprise,  thus is hypnotherapy.

My buddy mentioned this to me a while ago and knowing the drastic effects a poor mind can have on a healthy body, I considered this "worth trying".  We all have psychological problems, its just a matter of whether they show.  Sometimes they show in our physical bodies.  

Daniel, I wouldn't be so worried, as long as this post is presented in a way in which the readers understand that it is a possible treatment only by a slim chance.  Personally, being 24 years old male, 165lbs  built like a sprinter, I know it is a very unique pathology I have for my mild OSA, so I know there MIGHT be a unique treatment for it.

Guest wrote:

There is no right speculation here..... it is all about how big your imagination is to grasp unlikely possibilities.  I don't want to pressupose anything on the infinitely complex human body, do you Daniel?

If I have conscious control over my tongue and soft palate during my waking life, who's to say I couldn't gain conscious control of them while asleep?  Hey, everyone else has control over them while they sleep!!!  Maybe its a control we all must gain back somehow?  I'm sure the mechanism by which I gained this control would be infinitely complex and mysterious..... suprise,  thus is hypnotherapy.

My buddy mentioned this to me a while ago and knowing the drastic effects a poor mind can have on a healthy body, I considered this "worth trying".  We all have psychological problems, its just a matter of whether they show.  Sometimes they show in our physical bodies.  

Daniel, I wouldn't be so worried, as long as this post is presented in a way in which the readers understand that it is a possible treatment only by a slim chance.  Personally, being 24 years old male, 165lbs  built like a sprinter, I know it is a very unique pathology I have for my mild OSA, so I know there MIGHT be a unique treatment for it.

Hi Guest
Do you have conscious control of your tongue and soft palate at night ? I doubt so. You might also wish to know that the tongue and soft palate are not always the cause of OSA. Obstructions can be at a lower level of the airway or might be caused by genuine 'weak' tissue throughout.

You seem to miss the point. The original post was presented by a 'professional hypnotherapist', quoting a 'successful' treatment of OSA by hypnotherapy, without the benefit of a sleep study........ie no definitive proof.  I find that quite objectionable and dangerous. While the first amendment in the US allows freedom of speech, I think that this pushes the boundaries a little. What's unique, your pathology (which it's not) or that there may be a unique treatment for OSA ?

Until such time as there are qualified and proven successes in treating OSA, and 'professional hypnotherapists' screaming 'Ureka' from the rooftops (in this case a support forum) don't qualify you are free to mess with your own health.

Daniel


_________________
The untreated Sleep Apnoea sufferer died quietly in his sleep.......
Unlike his three passengers who died screaming !!!!!!

(Anon)

Point taken Daniel.

This brings up a point that I would like to talk briefly about with you.  The way I see this problem is that if you closely watch someone sleeping AND you know what to look and listen and feel for, this is ALMOST as good as a sleep study.  Hook the sleeper up to a pulse ox and you've got more than enough to draw MANY MANY conclusions about their sleep status.  See, numbers, in this case, seem to me like they only confirm what the observer already knows.  Capnography is great, and the respiratory muscle sensors are cool, but come on..... if I am sitting there with my eagle eye on an OSA sufferer, I can estimate their minute volume, tidal volume, sleep stages, ect. very well, no?  

Tell me your opinion Daniel.  Really, How much better is a sleep study than a keen observer?  It's an honest, inquisitive question.

Anonymous wrote:

Point taken Daniel.

This brings up a point that I would like to talk briefly about with you.  The way I see this problem is that if you closely watch someone sleeping AND you know what to look and listen and feel for, this is ALMOST as good as a sleep study.  Hook the sleeper up to a pulse ox and you've got more than enough to draw MANY MANY conclusions about their sleep status.  See, numbers, in this case, seem to me like they only confirm what the observer already knows.  Capnography is great, and the respiratory muscle sensors are cool, but come on..... if I am sitting there with my eagle eye on an OSA sufferer, I can estimate their minute volume, tidal volume, sleep stages, ect. very well, no?  

Tell me your opinion Daniel.  Really, How much better is a sleep study than a keen observer?  It's an honest, inquisitive question.

Really, no contest here.

Well, a keen observer is how the original sleep studies were carried out. A highly trained technician or doctor actually observed the patient for most of the night. Not very cost effective and very much dependant on the quality of the observer and their training.

With the volumes of sleep studies being undertaken you would need a huge number of highly qualified people. Not going to happen. Delighted to read that you can estimate so many things from observation, however you fail to mention the things that are more likely to kill you such as hypertension and the increased liklihood of stroke during sleep. OSA is not solely about sleep patterns. Other problems such as the possibility of type 2 diabetes will not be diagnosed by observation. One must also be in a position to determine whether the apnoea is obstructive or central, not by observation. What if the diagnosis is not OSA but maybe UARS, unlikely to diagnose by observation.

Titration is another issue and calls for specific data, even if the titration diagnosis is to be carried out the old fashioned way using data from the study along with charts etc. For this to be accurate the data must be accurate.

Finally, the crucial one. Doctors, hospitals et al get sued for incorrect diagnosis. Sleep studies record specific, pertinent data which would not be possible by observation.

I rest my case.

Daniel


_________________
The untreated Sleep Apnoea sufferer died quietly in his sleep.......
Unlike his three passengers who died screaming !!!!!!

(Anon)

Daniel wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Point taken Daniel.

This brings up a point that I would like to talk briefly about with you.  The way I see this problem is that if you closely watch someone sleeping AND you know what to look and listen and feel for, this is ALMOST as good as a sleep study.  Hook the sleeper up to a pulse ox and you've got more than enough to draw MANY MANY conclusions about their sleep status.  See, numbers, in this case, seem to me like they only confirm what the observer already knows.  Capnography is great, and the respiratory muscle sensors are cool, but come on..... if I am sitting there with my eagle eye on an OSA sufferer, I can estimate their minute volume, tidal volume, sleep stages, ect. very well, no?  

Tell me your opinion Daniel.  Really, How much better is a sleep study than a keen observer?  It's an honest, inquisitive question.

Really, no contest here.

Well, a keen observer is how the original sleep studies were carried out. A highly trained technician or doctor actually observed the patient for most of the night. Not very cost effective and very much dependant on the quality of the observer and their training.

With the volumes of sleep studies being undertaken you would need a huge number of highly qualified people. Not going to happen. Delighted to read that you can estimate so many things from observation, however you fail to mention the things that are more likely to kill you such as hypertension and the increased liklihood of stroke during sleep. OSA is not solely about sleep patterns. Other problems such as the possibility of type 2 diabetes will not be diagnosed by observation. One must also be in a position to determine whether the apnoea is obstructive or central, not by observation. What if the diagnosis is not OSA but maybe UARS, unlikely to diagnose by observation.

Titration is another issue and calls for specific data, even if the titration diagnosis is to be carried out the old fashioned way using data from the study along with charts etc. For this to be accurate the data must be accurate.

Finally, the crucial one. Doctors, hospitals et al get sued for incorrect diagnosis. Sleep studies record specific, pertinent data which would not be possible by observation.

I rest my case.

Daniel

I can see, from your explicit statement, AND from the way you are approaching this, that this is a debate for you, with only two sides, and a conclusion drawn at the end of each exchange.  I was hoping for a HUMAN BEING who would analyze a scenario ALONG WITH me.  Oh well.

Look, it is a common principle of fact that what is best for the whole (society) is not necessarily best for one person.  Would you agree this is a common, reoccurring concept in life?  Try to pry yourself out of the mass healthcare mindset for one moment!

On a society scale, things MUST be done with numbers.  Simply put, this keeps everyone from cutting each others' throats!  On a personal scale, I could sit down with 100 patients for a night and tell you with a good degree of acuracy whether they are suffering from central or obstructive.  I am not a trained technician, I am a person who is WILLING to use common sense and concentration on particulars.  I could tell you the severity of their problems within a certain respectible range or accuracy.  I could tell them what positions are best for them, ect.

I don't remember a BP cuff being on my arm during my study.... do they do that?

I am considering paying my buddy to watch me sleep all night (because I have no sleeping partner).  If I had a pulse ox hooked up, and my buddy knew what to look for and knew how to describe what he saw to me in the morning, this can tell a lot.  He could probably tell me whether I was experiencing centrals or OSA's just by listening to me breathe.

I won't go any deeper here.  Your "case" mindset only helps the masses (which is worth a lot I must say), but it doesn't help individuals.  Good day and continue what you do here.  It honestly helps a lot of people, in all seriousness.  I appreciate people like you.

Guest, all that would accomplish is determining if if you need to have a full sleep study.  My wife stated to my doc that she saw me stop breathing and that was enough to get the insurance to cover the study.  As to an untrained individual being able to determine centrals vs obstructive, I find that highly suspect.  

You stated that you had a study done, so why the interest in having someone observe you?  Are you not getting treatment?  Are you trying some alternate treatment that you think is working?  


The Gold standard for diagnosing is a PSG.  Followed by a non attended PSG.  I think that some would agree that using an AUTO titrating CPAP with software would be better than a keen observer.  

If you can't afford a PSG, there are ways to get it done and paid for with little to no expense to you.  An alternative is to talk to your doc and see if they can't put you on an auto for a week and have the doc look at the results.

The big thing here is getting treated, and getting treated correctly.  Thinking you are being treated, without a test backing it up is not only fooling yourself but potentially putting yourself at risk.

Anonymous wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Point taken Daniel.

This brings up a point that I would like to talk briefly about with you.  The way I see this problem is that if you closely watch someone sleeping AND you know what to look and listen and feel for, this is ALMOST as good as a sleep study.  Hook the sleeper up to a pulse ox and you've got more than enough to draw MANY MANY conclusions about their sleep status.  See, numbers, in this case, seem to me like they only confirm what the observer already knows.  Capnography is great, and the respiratory muscle sensors are cool, but come on..... if I am sitting there with my eagle eye on an OSA sufferer, I can estimate their minute volume, tidal volume, sleep stages, ect. very well, no?  

Tell me your opinion Daniel.  Really, How much better is a sleep study than a keen observer?  It's an honest, inquisitive question.

Really, no contest here.

Well, a keen observer is how the original sleep studies were carried out. A highly trained technician or doctor actually observed the patient for most of the night. Not very cost effective and very much dependant on the quality of the observer and their training.

With the volumes of sleep studies being undertaken you would need a huge number of highly qualified people. Not going to happen. Delighted to read that you can estimate so many things from observation, however you fail to mention the things that are more likely to kill you such as hypertension and the increased liklihood of stroke during sleep. OSA is not solely about sleep patterns. Other problems such as the possibility of type 2 diabetes will not be diagnosed by observation. One must also be in a position to determine whether the apnoea is obstructive or central, not by observation. What if the diagnosis is not OSA but maybe UARS, unlikely to diagnose by observation.

Titration is another issue and calls for specific data, even if the titration diagnosis is to be carried out the old fashioned way using data from the study along with charts etc. For this to be accurate the data must be accurate.

Finally, the crucial one. Doctors, hospitals et al get sued for incorrect diagnosis. Sleep studies record specific, pertinent data which would not be possible by observation.

I rest my case.

Daniel

I can see, from your explicit statement, AND from the way you are approaching this, that this is a debate for you, with only two sides, and a conclusion drawn at the end of each exchange.  I was hoping for a HUMAN BEING who would analyze a scenario ALONG WITH me.  Oh well.

Look, it is a common principle of fact that what is best for the whole (society) is not necessarily best for one person.  Would you agree this is a common, reoccurring concept in life?  Try to pry yourself out of the mass healthcare mindset for one moment!

On a society scale, things MUST be done with numbers.  Simply put, this keeps everyone from cutting each others' throats!  On a personal scale, I could sit down with 100 patients for a night and tell you with a good degree of acuracy whether they are suffering from central or obstructive.  I am not a trained technician, I am a person who is WILLING to use common sense and concentration on particulars.  I could tell you the severity of their problems within a certain respectible range or accuracy.  I could tell them what positions are best for them, ect.

I don't remember a BP cuff being on my arm during my study.... do they do that?

I am considering paying my buddy to watch me sleep all night (because I have no sleeping partner).  If I had a pulse ox hooked up, and my buddy knew what to look for and knew how to describe what he saw to me in the morning, this can tell a lot.  He could probably tell me whether I was experiencing centrals or OSA's just by listening to me breathe.

I won't go any deeper here.  Your "case" mindset only helps the masses (which is worth a lot I must say), but it doesn't help individuals.  Good day and continue what you do here.  It honestly helps a lot of people, in all seriousness.  I appreciate people like you.

Guest,

What do you want from this forum ?

If you want to discuss the possibility of alternative methods of diagnosis and treatment (without peer reviewed studies), this is not the place. People who post here look for and offer help to one another, within the confines of accepted methods of diagnosis and treatment. We leave it up to the professional medics to devise new and better methods of diagnosis and treatment.

Analyzing individual scenarios, based on observations by untrained personnel...........I don't think so. It might be classed as irresponsible.

Debating........maybe, but what else was I to do. Pretend to agree that maybe you had a point, while all the time I knew you didn't ?

On the other side I might have been rude, but that would not achieve much either.

You need to have your apnoea dealt with, professionally.

Daniel


_________________
The untreated Sleep Apnoea sufferer died quietly in his sleep.......
Unlike his three passengers who died screaming !!!!!!

(Anon)

Well, I decided I would chime in being a professional in the healthcare profession.  I agree with Daniel about needing to have data to back yourself up and going through studies to obtain the people to be studied (that also covers you ethically too).  I agree with Vicki that if you find the proof great and I agree that the mind does do a lot to us that we don't understand.  I have some clients that have psychosomatic symptoms that once they resolve their issues, the symptoms tend to fade.  Everyone has a bit of truth in this discussion.  BUT overall, one does need to becareful not to mislead anyone.  For those of us that have to wait forever for our appointments, it could be looked into our mental health and our stresses.  However, everyone should get the data to back them up as to the diagnosis and the recovery.  I didn't know until this happened that when I was born, I would stop breathing and Mom made the hospital keep me an extra day, I had vasodepression as a child, I had Bruxism in college and talked in my sleep (on the phone and in person with people believing that I was awake), the last study found I had OSA along with central, along with the shallow breathing.  My breathing is so shallow, one couldn't tell without the machines unless you are going to hold your cheek to my face for 6-8 hours while I slept.  I don't normally snore so the OSA and Central are not necessarily distinguishable without the equipment for me.  I understand both sides of the arguments and like Vicki said, if the data is there to back you up - great, but this conversation is going in circles now.  
Thank you for sharing the story, thank you Daniel for reminding everyone to still get the data to verify what's going on.


_________________
Sher