Raconteur wrote:

I was (before retirement) a small business owner. Health care was and is the biggest drain on the bottom line. I still believe that even if it costs business and individuals more to implement a national health care system, the benefits far outweigh the cost.

I own a small business and I can't afford any more taxes.  If I am forced to spend more on health care coverage, my only solution, like many other small businesses, would be to reduce the size of my workforce or close up shop, put everyone out of work, and go back to corporate IT.  What benefit is there in causing higher unemployment?


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SidecarMike

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SidecarMike wrote:

Raconteur wrote:

I was (before retirement) a small business owner. Health care was and is the biggest drain on the bottom line. I still believe that even if it costs business and individuals more to implement a national health care system, the benefits far outweigh the cost.

I own a small business and I can't afford any more taxes.  If I am forced to spend more on health care coverage, my only solution, like many other small businesses, would be to reduce the size of my workforce or close up shop, put everyone out of work, and go back to corporate IT.  What benefit is there in causing higher unemployment?

That makes no sense to me, sorry. The priorities are all wrong -- personal and/or corporate profit vs. general social wellness. Taxes will increase regardless of whether we implement nationalized health care. There will be some businesses, perhaps (a tiny fragment of the whole), that would actually have to shutter the windows, but that's extreme and actually quite unlikely (even in your case, in my opinion). Smaller profits, perhaps, but again -- small price to pay.

Raconteur wrote:

SidecarMike wrote:

Raconteur wrote:

I was (before retirement) a small business owner. Health care was and is the biggest drain on the bottom line. I still believe that even if it costs business and individuals more to implement a national health care system, the benefits far outweigh the cost.

I own a small business and I can't afford any more taxes.  If I am forced to spend more on health care coverage, my only solution, like many other small businesses, would be to reduce the size of my workforce or close up shop, put everyone out of work, and go back to corporate IT.  What benefit is there in causing higher unemployment?

That makes no sense to me, sorry. The priorities are all wrong -- personal and/or corporate profit vs. general social wellness. Taxes will increase regardless of whether we implement nationalized health care. There will be some businesses, perhaps (a tiny fragment of the whole), that would actually have to shutter the windows, but that's extreme and actually quite unlikely (even in your case, in my opinion). Smaller profits, perhaps, but again -- small price to pay.

I'm all for Social Wellness, but not if it will force me in to bankruptcy.  The profits are already too small to justify the expenses.  I make less than minimum wage when I factor in the hours I work.  I do it because I hope that one day the business will prosper.  When I speak to the workers about health insurance, which I don't offer today, the general consensus is that if it becomes mandatory they will demand salary increases to cover their contribution.  In other words, I will be paying 100% of any mandated health care.  I can't afford that and I don't see many small businesses that can. I only have health insurance myself because my wife's employer is large enough to offer it.  Even in their case they change companies almost yearly to keep costs manageable.  
 I am watching the Mass. initiative quite closely.  I really do hope it works, but I expect it to do nothing but put a lot of people out of work.


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SidecarMike

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SidecarMike wrote:

No one denies that there is a problem.  My only disagreement was with your statement that "Gee if Hillary gets elected everything will get fixed".

Well she did propose a Bill on Health Care reforms after studying the Australian medicare, did she not.
That she did not have the numbers in the senate and the congress at that time foiled her attempt.

This time round with the Democrats having the numbers in both houses if Hillary wins I am sure she will readdress the Health Care issue...American citizens deserve better.

As an Aussie I am neither Republican nor a Democrat to be biased one way or the other.

You seemed to knock Michael moore and you should not since you agree that there is a problem.

We can agree to disagree if you wish as this is just a discussion



Last edited by Ramboaus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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SidecarMike wrote:

I own a small business and I can't afford any more taxes.  If I am forced to spend more on health care coverage, my only solution, like many other small businesses, would be to reduce the size of my workforce or close up shop, put everyone out of work, and go back to corporate IT.  What benefit is there in causing higher unemployment?

Businesses do not pay Medicare Levy in Australia. Individual citizens are taxed at 1% now 1.5% of Gross annual income as medicare levy and that is only for people who are employed. Nothing can be fairere than that. Some on earning $100,000 per annum pays $1500 as medicare levi that guarantees public hospital treatment. An additional $ 4000 per annum will guarantee top Private medical insurance for the entire family including eye and dental care and choice of specialists and single room in hospitals and ambulance cover etc.

The medicare levi from employed people is used to cover all aged and unemployed citizens.


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Ramboaus wrote:

You seemed to knock Michael moore and you should not since you agree that there is a problem.

Agreeing that there is a problem doesn't make Micheal Moore an honest journalist, nor does it make Hillary the savior of mankind.


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SidecarMike

BiPAP Auto M Series & a Respironics OptiLife mask

SidecarMike wrote:

Ramboaus wrote:

You seemed to knock Michael moore and you should not since you agree that there is a problem.

Agreeing that there is a problem doesn't make Micheal Moore an honest journalist, nor does it make Hillary the savior of mankind.

Side car Mike.
When we have a problem we should be glad that some one is raising the awareness. I am sure I will salute Bush if he was to do something to improve health care before his term ends and that does not mean I admire the man who is responsibe for an invasion & the deaths of 4000 innocent American soldiers and over a hundred thousand Iraqis and Afghanistanis on some WMD pretext.


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I was going to stay out of this discussion but I see that is not going to happen. Two point against our government running the health care system.

1. Medicare, go take a real close look at the corruption, cost over runs and other major problems of that system.
2. Veterans hospitals, some are state of the art, other I wouldn't take my pet to for care. I'm vet so I do know what I'm talking about. In fact in the military before I retired the standing joke was "Want to see national health care, visit a VA hospital."

The government should regulate the health care industry to force private insurance companies to provide coverage to everyone in the country and bring cost down. If the government gets involved past that get ready for our government to collapse under the amount of debt it is going to incur.


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Ozone Rambler wrote:

The government should regulate the health care industry to force private insurance companies to provide coverage to everyone in the country and bring cost down. If the government gets involved past that get ready for our government to collapse under the amount of debt it is going to incur.

Now that is a great idea. But does any elected Government have the clout to force private medical insurance companies to comply ?

look at the amount of money wasted on wars. Billions and billions.
Does charity not begin at home in America ?


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Ramboaus our government here in America is very good at regulating private industry. They do have the clout to do it with no problems. The banking industry is one example with the FDIC and NCUA has regulatory arms of the government. Our airline industry used to be regulated and ran much better than it does now with out government oversight. It would be a case study to look at how the airline industry ran with government oversight and now without that government oversight. Right now I would say the airline and health care industries are in need of government regulatory oversight. Most industries do not need government oversight but those two are in dire need of it.

Charity does begin at home. It also takes community involvement to make charity work. That is where we are having problems in America. Fewer people are joining organizations to work in the community to help those that need help. I'm sure this will correct itself in time but it is really hard to get people involved now days.


_________________
Our constitution protects aliens, drunks and U.S. Senators.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)

Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)

Ozone Rambler wrote:

Charity does begin at home. It also takes community involvement to make charity work. That is where we are having problems in America. Fewer people are joining organizations to work in the community to help those that need help. I'm sure this will correct itself in time but it is really hard to get people involved now days.

Charity does begin at home When I wrote Charity begins at home, the suggestion was that when USA has such serious issues as social security and health care within the country, it should not be wasting zillions of Dollars / Tax Payers money, waging wars outside its own soil.

Establishing democracy in Iraq cannot be more important to Americans than caring for sick American citizens who cannot afford medical insurance. Iraq neither had WMDs as the world was told nor where there any Alqueida insurgents in Iraq then. In 2007 Iraq has Alqueida members exploding car bombs on a daily basis killing innocent people as well as American soldiers.

What for is the question ? Has USA not learnt enough from the Killing Fields of Vietnam ? Believe it is time for American citizens to stand up and demend the elected politcians do more for its citizens wrt health care, a health care that every american citizen deserves, not just the rich .


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It's easy to criticize another person's country or politics or health care, but I'm guessing we should look within as well.
Here's an excerpt from a message I recieved from an Australian friend.  The gentleman Andrew he refers to is a friend of his who hit a kangaroo with his motorcycle.  It sounds just like our problems here with Whitetail deer.

I find his description of the Australian health care system to be relevant to your comments
***********************************
I went into Canberra Hospital this morning and saw Andrew. He's *OK* in that he's sitting up and breathing.

At the risk of being seen as 'Venting' the fact remains that this accident occured two nights ago, the bloke is still sitting in a holding surgical ward and has NOT been operated on. This is in Australia's CAPITAL CITY!!!!! Why? because there aren't enough bloody doctors thats why. His Humerous is now sitting adjacent to his third rib. Its socket is shattered. this is NOT a small injury but there isn't a doctor to operate on him! In a country as rich as ours this is an outrage! <Expletive String Deleted> I'm really angry. Not just because of the <expletive> roo huggers but because my country, of which I feel justifiably proud, allows its health system to degenerate to such a degree that a seriously injured person has to sit for days waiting for treatment. And it's not an issue of 'Public' Vs. 'Private' In Canberra they are the same doctors, you have no *choice* even for ellective surgery but the fact that quite simply the system is shot to <Expletive>. Arrrgh!!!!!
*********************************
Health care worldwide is a disgrace.  If you do a search right here you'll find plenty of stories from Canadian members complaining about long waits for sleep studies and limited availability of Doctors.  I have family in London who spend every visit complaining about the lack of choices in health care and the high taxes needed to support it.  I hear the same kind of thing from friends in Austria, Italy, and Norway.

How about we find ways to improve the system instead of criticizing each other's country?


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SidecarMike

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Side Car Mike, Just a debate, nothing personal

I am not criticising your country at all. The Movie SICKO criticises the health system in USA hence this thread. In Australia every one is entitled to health care. Long queues and delayed health care is still a ton better than a system where if you are poor and have no medical insurance you are as good as DEAD. I am reminded of the movie John Q here.

If you believe USA had the worlds best health care system, then we will not be having this discussion nor would Michael Moore have made SICKO.

I have family and friends living in USA as well as UK & Canada and we all compare notes all the time. In case you did not know many sick people from UK and USA are now going to private hospitals in India for transplants and bye pas surgery etc as it is more affordable


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Ramboaus health care is one issue. The War on Terrorism is another issue. America must fight or it will fall to the Muslim religous fanatics within 100 years of leaving the middle east. The barbarians are at the gate and most American do not realize this. America has freedoms and believes in the individual to do pretty much what they want within legal limits. The Muslim religon does not reconginze freedoms or individual rights. Take a look at the legal system, if that is what you want to call it, in Iran if you think I'm kidding on this. So with that said here is something for you to think about.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." ~ John Stuart Mill


_________________
Our constitution protects aliens, drunks and U.S. Senators.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)

Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)

Ozone Rambler wrote:

Ramboaus health care is one issue. The War on Terrorism is another issue.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." ~ John Stuart Mill

The Crusades have gone on for centuries. There are no winners in a war only losers. I am neither a Christian nor a muslim but a free thinker and believe in PEACE and not WAR. I agree that is my opinion and you are entitled to yours.

People from all over the world are flying aroud the globe merrily, but this war on terrorism has created a paranoia making Americans prisoners in their own homes. I have tons of American friedns who are even scared to get on a plane to come to Sydney. Why should people live in prepetual fear ?

When a man is a poor wage earner he sleeps peacefully leaving his front door open. yet when the same man becomes a millionaire he builds high fences, has burglar alarms and security cameras to protect himslef and his posessions. Just a simple analogy that could be applied to America and Americans. I know of people in new york who will not open their doors to any one after 7.00pm unless  you announce your arrival in advance.

Sorry I hate to read about the killings day in and day out due to a war on terror with no victory in sight as the enemy is a shadow. Any way i am sorry about the digression let us get back to Health Services in USA

Does not matter what religion or what region people belong to, every one has just one life and one dream which is to have a great life on earth.


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