I watched the movie SICKO that was released last week and it did make me feel sick in the stomach as i went to USA in 1999 on a five week holiday without medical insurance. I suffered a stroke in April 2000. Had it happened in USA during my holiday I would have returned in a body bag only because I did not have any insurance or would have been forced to sell my house to pay hospital bills.

The movie made me feel sad that the Richest nation in the world and a nation that the rest of the world looks up to does not seem to care for its own people.

I just could not believe that volunteers who helped out during 9/11 are virtually dying with respiratory diseases but cannot get treatment only because they were volunteers. Imagine being able to get a drug that costs $120 in usa for $1 in Cuba

Imagine a man having to choose which finger he wanted saved, the middle finger costing $60,000 or the ring finger that cost $12000. He could only afford $12000 and lost the middle finger as the surgeons would not operate.

I am glad that Canada,UK, France and Australia care for each and every human being irrespective of how poor he may be and whether he is a citizen or not.

I can now fully understand threads where members of this forum complain about doctors and HMOs.

Sad indeed when USA is pouring trillions into wars that kill and maime people, money that could be spent in providing quality health care for all American citizens.

Let us pray and hope that Hillary Clinton gets elected and breathes a new life into health care and medical insurances in USA that seem to be controlled by MNCs through reforms


_________________
Cheers
Ram
http://www.vadclub.com

Bush is currently threatening to veto a healthcare bill to help children because it would "move America toward nationalized healthcare"

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78550.php

Quote:

The US House of Representatives voted 225 to 204 yesterday [August 1] to expand the government sponsored child health insurance scheme SCHIP and increase its budget by nearly 50 billion dollars over five years, despite a threat by President Bush that he would veto the legislation because it would move America toward nationalized healthcare.
...
Republican Representative Jim McCrery of Louisiana agreed with the President that the Democrat led bill was "a massive expansion of government-controlled health care". He said it was a ploy to "lure" middle class families out of private health insurance.

In the meantime the Senate has also been working on a similar bill that would expand SCHIP by 35 billion dollars, with no changes to Medicare, but the tax on tobacco would be higher (61 cents more than the current 39 cents per pack of cigarettes, and even higher increases for cigars). Bush has threatened to veto this bill as well. The two bills will have to be made into one before being sent to the President.

in 1975 when Labour PM Gough Whitlam was elected he created MediCare which is a nationalised healthcare for all citizens and permanent residents. Every one had to pay 1% of the gross annual salary as a medicare levy. The more you earned the more you paid in dollar term yet the percentage was fixed. Medicare entitles every one to the public health care as a minimum. whhen we go and see our general practitioners we just have to show our medicare card and it gets bulk billed and paid by the government.

Then there was Medibank and several other Private insurances that depending on the cover chosen got you into a shared ward or a single room in the hospital. Private insurance means the patient chooses a doctor of choice for surgery etc while in a hospital for an operation. Private insurance also has options like dental. eye care and physio, acupuncture chiro etc etc. A top family cover costs arounf Aud $ 4000 per annum.

Over the years the liberal governments and the doctors have eroded the system and now doctors are allowed to charge private patients what they want over and above the medicare rebate. My wife has just had eye and spinal surgery and one surgeon charged a lot more that the medicare rate while the other did not charge a cent more.

People can go and see any GP any time or go to any hospital emergency of choice. This way if a doctor is not all that good he gets to see fewer patients. Popular doctors like my GP are overworked as every one wants to see him.

In any Australian hospital patient care remains the same for medicare and private patients, excepth the latter have the choice to select the surgeon or specialist.

I have spent six months in UK and must say National Health Service is struggling for funds and this means lowering of standards. A stroke patient in Australi can have an MRI done withing 24 hours. In UK it may take 12 months for a neurologist in London to get an MRI approved by the bureaucrats.

I believe Canada and Australia have similar structures.

I am now beginning to understand why I receive so many spam emails about cheaper drugs in Canada.
US health care requires drastic reforms to say the least. This cannot be brought about by Senators and Congressmen. It has to be brought about by the People by demanding "equality" that the American constitution promises

Perhaps people who hav good health should be rewarded too and that could be a great incetive to all Americans to get healthy by eating and sleeping healthy


_________________
Cheers
Ram
http://www.vadclub.com

I was reading an article several months back in response to the anti smoking legislation passed here in Nevada which was described as a blow to freedom. One of the examples given was that at one time you had a right to smoke anywhere, any time. In having a right to smoking anywhere at any time, a person had the ability to set aside their right and choose not to smoke in deference to the health of others, or to show yourself indifferent to the health of others and light up.. even to blow smoke rings at those who found it disagreeable. It really shows who you are to have the right, the freedom, to do as you wish, and how you choose to act on that right.

We have the right to the pursuit of happiness, which includes the right to try and do what we can to get good medical care. If we choose to work at a place that doesn't offer it, then if we want it, we have to pay for it out of pocket. If you choose to work 3 jobs to be able to make that happen, you are free to try. That some can't do so... that some do not earn enough to afford coverage is a reality even today. We used to come to the aid of those in need. It's called charity, and churches and civic groups would contribute great sums to help those in need. We recently did it for Katrina victims on an impressive scale. Increasingly, we look to the government to do that instead, but it's still charity by another name and we pay higher taxes to cover the cost. We are all in essence forced to give charity, even if some wouldn't have otherwise. It also never works as well as assistance applied on a local level in my opinion.

Would I love to have people give me everything my heart desired on a silver platter? Sure, lol. That's a fantasy. Never going to happen, and I would hate for others to have to toil to get me those things. I prefer freedom to slavery. I made sure I found employment with a company that offers health care. Not the best money can buy, mind you, but it's still better than nothing. I wish every employer offered medical insurance, but they don't.. sadly. It costs each and every person in the US an immense burden to have uninsured people out there. I think it can be a reality one day to have employers offer affordable group health insurance policies to their workers voluntarily, not forced. I think that would be a better solution than a government program.

Until then, we have a right as free citizens of the US to do what we can to have medical coverage... if we want it bad enough, or to ask for charity to get through those times when we don't have it. That's not such a bad thing when you think about it. Even if you need charity.. to get it from your fellow man right in your home town makes you feel grateful.. happy that there are those who care enough to help you in your time of need, and one day you may repay that kindness yourself. Who ever thought that after waiting in an 4 hour line at a government office filling out forms to talk to people who obviously didn't care about you to get something similar?

John


_________________
"Death doesn't really worry me that much, I'm not frightened about it... I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Woody Allen
Respironics M Series Auto with A-Flex , Pressure 9-12cmH2O, Mirage Swift II Nasal pillows, and Ace bandages

Great thread, I moved it to late night for the off-topic discussion.

Vicki


_________________
That which does not kill you makes you stronger-Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich must of had apnea.

Ramboaus wrote:

I watched the movie SICKO that was released last week and it did make me feel sick in the stomach as i went to USA in 1999 on a five week holiday without medical insurance. I suffered a stroke in April 2000. Had it happened in USA during my holiday I would have returned in a body bag only because I did not have any insurance or would have been forced to sell my house to pay hospital bills.

The movie made me feel sad that the Richest nation in the world and a nation that the rest of the world looks up to does not seem to care for its own people.

I just could not believe that volunteers who helped out during 9/11 are virtually dying with respiratory diseases but cannot get treatment only because they were volunteers. Imagine being able to get a drug that costs $120 in usa for $1 in Cuba

Imagine a man having to choose which finger he wanted saved, the middle finger costing $60,000 or the ring finger that cost $12000. He could only afford $12000 and lost the middle finger as the surgeons would not operate.

I am glad that Canada,UK, France and Australia care for each and every human being irrespective of how poor he may be and whether he is a citizen or not.

I can now fully understand threads where members of this forum complain about doctors and HMOs.

Sad indeed when USA is pouring trillions into wars that kill and maime people, money that could be spent in providing quality health care for all American citizens.

Let us pray and hope that Hillary Clinton gets elected and breathes a new life into health care and medical insurances in USA that seem to be controlled by MNCs through reforms

Remember that Micheal Moore is a failed film maker who can only make a living by making sensationalistic documentaries that at the very least stretch the truth to it's limits.  He tends to tell one side of a story as gospel and dismisses everything that opposes his view.  
The first example that comes to mind was when he claimed that not a single senator or congressman had a child in the military.  When people stepped forward to correct them, he discounted step children, adopted children, one senator who had raised his nephews as his own, etc.  Technically he told the truth, but stretched it way out of proportion.
A good friend of mine, a viet Nam veteran, says it best when he says that if you want to see socialized medicine at work in the U.S. talk to a veteran and ask him how he would rank his health care.
Remember that many of the health care problems we have were here during the 8 years Hillary's husband was in office and that when President Reagon pressed for Health Care reform it was Hillary's party that kept it from happening.  The only thing that will change is our taxes will go up and the government will find more ways to spend our money.


_________________
SidecarMike

BiPAP Auto M Series & a Respironics OptiLife mask

He was given the tourist tour.  The average Cuban doesn't have access to simple things like Tylenol.  How do I know this?  My Pastor and a few others went down there and the ONLY thing that was asked for was medications.  The doctor CRIED when he saw the baby Tylenol because a child died the day before from a fever, had the medication been a day earlier, that child would not have died.  If you call that better healthcare, I have a few bridges to sell you.


/soapbox mode off



Last edited by Mike on Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

Michael Moore makes films that advance his political agenda, there's nothing altruistic in what he does.

Socialized healthcare is not a simple topic. It is extremely complicated, and you can read plenty of things that are not written by U.S. phamaceutical companies that show that while everyone in Canada may have health coverage, the overall quality level of that healthcare is much lower than in the U.S.  Having healthcare doesn't equate to having good healthcare. There are many issues involved in the debate over socialized healthcare. The foremost is how to pay for it, but even that is just one element.

From an individual taxation standpoint, using myself as an example - I live in the U.S. and have a gross income of roughly $85K. For simplicity's sake I'll ignore the reality that my taxable income is a good bit lower than that because of deductions, exemptions, and because things like 401k (retirement) and healthcare payroll deductions are taken out pre-tax, which lowers the taxable income. So at $85K, I pay 25% of my income in federal taxes and 0% in state taxes, for an overall tax rate of 25% and $21,250 in tax liability (reference: http://www.enterprisefunds.com/education/tax/brackets.asp). I happen to live in a state with no state income tax, but in states with income tax I'd expect to pay 5-8% (reference: http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html). For health insurance I pay $142 every 2 weeks to cover myself, my wife, and 3 kids. That's $3692/yr. for health insurance, or 4% of income. So overall, in the U.S. my tax rate would be at minimum 25% and at most 37%.

If I lived in Canada, I would of course pay 0% of my income for health insurance. However, I would pay 26% for federal taxes plus an additional 10-24% of my income depending on which province I lived in - for a tax rate of at minimum 36% ($30,600 tax liability - as compared to the $21,250 here in Texas that I referenced above) and possibly up to 50% ($42,500 tax liability - compared to $21,250 here in Texas) (reference: http://www.kpmg.ca/en/services/tax/documents/PersTable2007.pdf). Even when you add in the $3692/yr. I pay for insurance and the additional $1000-$2000/year I average in out of pocket healthcare related expenses (deductibles, prescriptions, doctor visits), the taxation is by necessity much higher in Canada.

When you consider the millions of working professionals and that Canada increasingly struggles to fund their healthcare system despite not having nearly the demographic challenges the U.S. has (nor anywhere near the population), it becomes more easy to see that just saying "let's go socialized" isn't such a simple proposition - political grandstanding aside. I'd absolutely love to see a solution, but the solution is not as easy as people seem to think it is.

Someone above me mentioned military veterans. My own father was a victim of the V.A. healthcare system. A "doctor" (a.k.a. a student doing an internship) did his open heart surgery, botched it, caused him to have a heart attack on the table, and managed to leave multiple sponges inside when he closed him up. My dad died a couple of days later. Of course, untreated sleep apnea and smoking contributed to the problems that resulted in my dad being on the table in the first place, but the V.A. healthcare system wasn't exactly up to par.


_________________
<--Will-->
http://www.inside-corner.com
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Well, I'm a Canadian and I absolutely deny that our health care is of lower quality than American health care.  The various indexes of the state of our health are good; we live longer and we lose fewer newborns, for example.  We also spend a lower percentage of domestic product than does the U.S.

Also, we do not have socialized medicine.  That implies that the government owns the system and everyone in it works on salary.  What we do have is a single payer system, where the government is the single payer.  Doctors tend to be independent professionals in a private practice, although there are some doctors who work on salary for large organizations.  Our labs and pharmacies are usually privately owned, except those connected to hospitals.  The hospitals themselves are nearly all non-profit institutions.  We have sleep clinics which are privately owned, and some connected to hospitals.  And, oh yes, the government covers about 2/3 of the cost of nursing home care.

For the last year that I have been able to get statistics for, the average cost per person for our medical care was about $3,000.  It is undoubtedly higher now.

My husband spent nearly 9 weeks in the hospital last winter and early spring, recovering from severe skin infections and a fractured vertebra and he received excellent care.

As for the income tax, the federal rate on the first $27,000 (approx.) is 15.25%; on the next amount to $73,000 is 22%; then to $119,000 it is 26% and above that it is 29%.  From the calculated tax, Federal non-refundable tax credits are deducted; these consist of a basic personal amount plus other deductions such medical expenses.   The provincial tax is calculated the same way and the 3 rates in Ontario are 6%, 9% and 11%.  Of course, this is way too superficial to really compare taxes.

Yes, our health system is underfunded by governments who are afraid to tell people what they really should be paying.  And, no, it doesn't really matter about the difference in our populations; it costs what it costs to cover a certain number of people whether it is 30,000,000 or 300,000,000.  But no one goes without health care in Canada and seniors don't go bankrupt paying for their meds or to cover their nursing home expenses.

And Michael Moore is not a Canadian!

The Real Debate here is not whether one is a Republican or a Democrat, whether he is an American or a Canadian and it is most definitely not about what Michael Moores nationality is. Nor is it about socialism or Government driven health care. Australian model is almost the same as Canada where every citizen is guaranteed treatment and there is no price quoted by surgeons to fix sawn off fingers. That I found shocking. Yes the Govt guarantees minimum payment for services rendered but alll doctors run their clinics like businesses except for those working in public hospitals. All pathology radiology etc etc are indeed private ennterprises same as in canada.

The debate is about whether every American citizen has a right to health care or should it be only reserved for those well employed citizens who can afford private medical insurance.

Just in this very board we know there are many members who are ill and incapacitated and hence unemployed. Can these people be denied medical and health care only because they are unemployed and broke ?

It is one thing to say I earn $$ XYZ or 85000 etc and have my own health cover. Good on you that you can afford private cover. But what about the less fortunate who do not have a job or who are unable to work ?
Should they be abandoned ? Are they second class American citizens ? And not all unemployed people are bludgers either

I can understand some thing like this happening in a country like India where a poor man requiring a bypass surgery dies as he cannot afford one. Why should it happen in USA, the land of Milk and Honey ?
That is the relevant question.

Surely Canada, Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand cannot all be wrong.
Any one aware of health care system in Germany ?


_________________
Cheers
Ram
http://www.vadclub.com

No one denies that there is a problem.  My only disagreement was with your statement that "Gee if Hillary gets elected everything will get fixed".


_________________
SidecarMike

BiPAP Auto M Series & a Respironics OptiLife mask

Frances wrote:

Well, I'm a Canadian and I absolutely deny that our health care is of lower quality than American health care.  The various indexes of the state of our health are good; we live longer and we lose fewer newborns, for example.  We also spend a lower percentage of domestic product than does the U.S.

Also, we do not have socialized medicine.  That implies that the government owns the system and everyone in it works on salary.  What we do have is a single payer system, where the government is the single payer.  Doctors tend to be independent professionals in a private practice, although there are some doctors who work on salary for large organizations.  Our labs and pharmacies are usually privately owned, except those connected to hospitals.  The hospitals themselves are nearly all non-profit institutions.  We have sleep clinics which are privately owned, and some connected to hospitals.  And, oh yes, the government covers about 2/3 of the cost of nursing home care.

For the last year that I have been able to get statistics for, the average cost per person for our medical care was about $3,000.  It is undoubtedly higher now.

My husband spent nearly 9 weeks in the hospital last winter and early spring, recovering from severe skin infections and a fractured vertebra and he received excellent care.

As for the income tax, the federal rate on the first $27,000 (approx.) is 15.25%; on the next amount to $73,000 is 22%; then to $119,000 it is 26% and above that it is 29%.  From the calculated tax, Federal non-refundable tax credits are deducted; these consist of a basic personal amount plus other deductions such medical expenses.   The provincial tax is calculated the same way and the 3 rates in Ontario are 6%, 9% and 11%.  Of course, this is way too superficial to really compare taxes.

Yes, our health system is underfunded by governments who are afraid to tell people what they really should be paying.  And, no, it doesn't really matter about the difference in our populations; it costs what it costs to cover a certain number of people whether it is 30,000,000 or 300,000,000.  But no one goes without health care in Canada and seniors don't go bankrupt paying for their meds or to cover their nursing home expenses.

And Michael Moore is not a Canadian!

I stand corrected, He never became a Canadian.  When I lived in Michigan he had spewed off about becoming a Canadian Citizen because it sucked so bad here.  Guess that was another one of his lies...

Anyone see this? Its on msn today, about massachusetts health insurance "experiment."

 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20255585/

I am a strong supporter of universal health care and believe that it can be done right.  And I completely admire Michael Moore and think his is doing a fantastic service.

Here are his links to other proponents for health care reform:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/links-resources/

"Sicko Factual Backup"
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/

"Sicko Truth Squad.  Setting the Record Straight" which corrects misinformation about the movie.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/setting-the-record-straight/

And finally, for any one who is having trouble getting care, this card has proven to be helpful.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/what-can-i-do/

Vicki



Last edited by Vicki on Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:56 am; edited 2 times in total
_________________
That which does not kill you makes you stronger-Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich must of had apnea.

Ramboaus wrote:

[...]The debate is about whether every American citizen has a right to health care or should it be only reserved for those well employed citizens who can afford private medical insurance.

Just in this very board we know there are many members who are ill and incapacitated and hence unemployed. Can these people be denied medical and health care only because they are unemployed and broke ?[...]

I couldn't agree more. This is the real focus of nationalized health care. The "overall" quality of health care may (relatively) suffer a downturn, but those most in need will at least have access to health care, not just those who can afford it.

SidecarMike wrote:

No one denies that there is a problem.  My only disagreement was with your statement that "Gee if Hillary gets elected everything will get fixed".

Hmm... maybe, maybe not. But it seems quite clear to me that the notion has Republican platform scorn and disdain.

I was (before retirement) a small business owner. Health care was and is the biggest drain on the bottom line. I still believe that even if it costs business and individuals more to implement a national health care system, the benefits far outweigh the cost.